CES ONE Interview for 2025 PNW MM
Few artists have shaped the landscape of graffiti and muralism like Ces. In this exclusive interview, we dive into his legendary journey—from his early days experimenting with spray cans to becoming one of the most influential figures in the graffiti world. Ces opens up about his craft, the evolution of his art, and what it means to push boundaries. With decades of experience and a body of work admired by artists and fans worldwide, Ces shares what drives him and how graffiti has shaped his identity as both an artist and a cultural icon.
Ces Interview
PNWMM
You started in the 80s, what was it like for inspirations back then? Were there any specific events that got you into graff in the first place, or writers that you saw up?
CES
I mean, what really got me started were just neighborhood kids doing it, and then
turning me on to it more and more. So I really didn't know much about it in the early days. I just knew certain people who did it, and they kind of, you know, put me down with it and took me out, you know, basically showed me what it was like, cutting school, getting high, riding the train all day, just pointing out who's who. And it was like all superheroes. I was like, you know, really fascinated, because I was already an artist, or thought I was an artist at a young age, I had already some form of skill that I was cultivating. So, you know, it was kind of like a place like, I found myself like, ‘Oh, I could utilize this skill to do this’. There's a reason why I'm able to draw and formulate and now I have a purpose.
PNWMM
What kind of art were you doing before graffiti? Because for a lot of us, like me, I never was into it before. Graffiti was kind of like the intro to art. So kind of just interested to hear about what you were doing before you got into letters and all that.
CES
I was into comic books and just like drawing figures and stuff like that, cartoon characters and just nothing had to do with graffiti was it was primarily like that, you know, even even drawing like or attempting to draw. I'm going to clarify that, I was real into rock music, drawing Zeppelin art and Jimi Hendrix and the doors, kind of, you know, emulating the Grateful Dead, some of their poster work and art from back at that time, I was really interested in that, and so that that actually had lettering, right? So I would do The Doors, the Grateful Dead, like Rick Griffin, would do it on their albums and stuff. So I was already attempting to do that stuff. And I did a few denim jackets for cats that I went to school with and stuff like The Band. Yes, I did a jacket based on their album cover. I did U2. I did Black Sabbath. I did a bunch of different things based on that. So that's really what I was into prior to writing graffiti.
PNWMM
Was there any like experiences in your early years of painting, when you first started
doing graffiti that shaped what direction you were going to go with it? I mean obviously you're extremely well known, doing wild styles, burners, that kind of thing. And there's plenty of graffiti writers that go in different directions with what they're going to do; events that happened, or influences you had that were like, ‘Okay, this is the type of graffiti you want to do, and I want to make my stuff look like this’?
CES
Yeah, no, that's, that's a very good question. And yes, to be honest with you, how I learned graffiti was more on the stylistic end of things. It wasn't so much as, you know, bombing and stuff like that, even though that was part of it. My introduction was you had to get a name, and then have a tag, a signature, and then have a simple throw up style. Then work on a stylized piece of wild style and work from there that was like the ultimate goal, right? So, the cats that I were writing with at that time, they were more into stylized writing, style, writing in the sense of doing pieces. They weren't too big on , you know, bombing, even though that was part of it. We always carried a marker and did tags. Did this? Did that? That was normal, that was kind of like breathing. That was every day. A special mission was to accumulate paint and have an outline ready, and be ready to do pieces and get fresh with it. That was how I learned how to do it, based on who I was around and then who I aspired to be. Looking at, you know, the masters that had already created like a blueprint that I would then emulate and say, ‘Okay, that's the route’, ‘that's the level I want to get to’. And I'm still working on it, but it's a life goal.
“Not knowing at 14, this is where I would be. I would make a life and communicate through my art and be able to do the things that I’ve done.”
PNWMM
Since you've been around for so long, and got to see different generations of graffiti, what major differences have you seen come from when you grew up and were starting to get into it, finding your groove, compared to the newer generations and the younger generations now, with the approach to graffiti. Is there anything that just stands out to you that just is different in a good way or a bad way?
CES
I think the information is the biggest thing with the internet and publications and film and like we're doing this interview. There wasn't a whole lot of that when I started here. There was Style Wars and there were IGT magazine by Phase and these guys and Subway Art and Spray Can Art, but it was very limited, and that even that wasn't immediately there when I first started, that that kind of came into play around that same time. So now, or rather, let's stay there.
When I was writing and trying to get information, you had to go out and seek it. There was no internet website. You didn't know who was who, what was what, where was this? You just had to be living and bumping heads with people being out there, seeing what was happening live. There was no worldwide movement like that we didn't know of, it was just us and what was happening in and around.
So today, the opposite, you know, these cats catch on a lot quicker.
The information and the blueprints to most is already kind of laid out, then the paint companies and markers and everything are geared towards and marketed towards the writers. So there was, there was none of that. You only had a certain amount of colors and paint brands that you would really have to steal to get your supply. So you really only had what it was. There were no sponsorships or to aspire to be anything other than your next piece. And how would you get that now? You're aspiring to travel around the world or do museum shows, or, caling off of buildings.
Now it's a whole other level to it, to keeps leveling up. In my opinion, when I think of the early beginnings, I have a studio where I'm at, you know, five, six days a week. And if you would have told the 14 year old me that I would, and probably have more pink than I'll ever use in my life. I'm just a creative person, and I live through that to have that, and not knowing at 14, this is where I would be. I would make a life and communicate through my art and be able to do the things that I've done. I wouldn't have believed it with the very simple beginnings of how it all started.
It seems very, very ultra achievable today, because there's so much information and so many things laid out, and so many great opportunities were created, because now you have companies that are owned by artists and this one and that one, the gates are wide open to keep pushing. And it's almost like you know who's the flavor of the month, who's doing? What's new, what's happening? Yes, let's get him in here. Let's fly him out. Let's put him on the roster. You know, it seems I don't know that next hot cat that's out here, paintings, trials and tribulations on how he came to be. But a lot of it seems to be happening very fast. You don't hear of somebody, and then you hear everything about them in a short amount of time. Whereas before, maybe I was naive to the fact, but it seemed like these guys were around forever, and their story was told, and it was a lot of folklore, and a lot of "‘this guy carries a gun’, and ‘this guy does this’, and ‘this guy…’, you know, you just heard simple shit.
Now you got the blueprint. You know where they're at. You know what their fucking dog looks like on social media, you know? You know what their favorite food is. It's like, the mystery and the bullshit that we had to, had to fucking navigate through, is now just blown open, that everyone has a portal to everyone else's life and then you almost feel like you know these people.
PNWMM
Without knowing everything's super accessible it's definitely something I've heard that lot of people see as a negative, which is super valid. I have friends that are like '‘don't ever post an action shot of me tagging’ or ‘I never want anyone to know even what my silhouette looks like’, which I definitely respect. But there are the pros to it too. People like you that are making full time careers out of it. And that's something I wanted to ask about because a lot of graffiti writers do make the transition into professional artists in one way or another; sign painting, tattooing, all that. But making it as an actual graffiti, letter form artist is pretty rare, still, in my opinion. There's people getting paint sponsorships and stuff like that. But to really, actually have it as a career, I'm just kind of curious how are you able to navigate that path and just be able to do that solely?
CES
I would say I manifested it. I would say I saw and I envisioned this for myself at a certain point. I really was so passionate about it, that I became that on which I wanted to be. Now, there's no guarantee in doing something like that, you know, like, yeah, I also wanted to fly like Superman, but that didn't happen. Yeah? So this, this side of things, of really becoming that, I think it's really what I wanted more than most anything. Was to just be good, to be great and to be this person. And I really worked hard at it. I guess looking back, it's almost natural and normal for me now, but if I put myself back to it, I put in a lot of time. I was in the gym constantly. I was constantly drawing, constantly learning and absorbing and putting myself out there and being around it.
I just became this way so to be able to do lettering and really push that forward, instead of I'm talented, and I can paint and draw most anything. I choose to do this, and because I really believe in it, and I believe it's a language that was really meant for writer to writer to understand and decipher. It wasn't really geared towards the public, because it's kind of just abstract to them. They wouldn't know a toy who did a piece from a master, because, ‘oh, that's his A’, and ‘that's your A’, and they don't know the difference between what historically how far you've come. It's, how can I say it's just how it is, it's subjective if you don't like it, but he does. That's all that matters, right?
So I can do something else, but I'll put some lettering in there, some way, and somehow. And so I won't make it solely about the lettering. I'll do a whole train scene, or I'll do a whole, you know, breaking wall, or characters and this and that, but somehow there's going to be lettering in there, because that's what I really want to push and push forward, that message of what graffiti is and what style is at a high level, because you work really hard, and it would really be a shame and a waste to abandon it. Yeah, for sure.
Another, another argument for other cats that came before me that switched up. I understand it. You know, maybe you get bored, maybe you felt you reached a certain point, or you wanted to speak a different language, you had something else to say. It wasn't about that, and I respect everyone's own decisions to do so I'm not bored with it. I still believe in it. I still feel like I got a lot left in the tank. So I don't think you're gonna see me switch up anytime soon.
“I believe it’s (graffiti) a language that was really meant for writer to writer to understand and decipher. It wasn’t really geared towards the public, because it’s kind of just abstract to them. ”
PNWMM
You been doing it for a little bit. You start to be like, ‘I want to make money in an artistic way’, right? In a creative way. But just the overall, general public outlook towards graffiti is so negative. It just a lot of the times it seems really hard to make that into a reality. And that's why most people make the pivot into something else. And it's crazy, even in Seattle, there's so much anti-graffiti cleanups and a lot of it comes down to graffiti abatement via murals. So it's then you get this kind of weird conflict between graffiti and street art. A lot of times it's not in a way of ‘Hey, we're going to have graffiti as murals’; you know, to clean up the tags or whatever that we don't like. It's just going to be like a wall of some flowers or something. So I was curious to get your opinion on street art and graffiti and this kind of environment conflict. Is there a way for it to coexist with each other? The legal versus illegal?
CES
I had a healthy amount of both. So I went out and painted last night under an underpass, and honestly, almost got caught. So I actually still know on occasion. Sometimes you have to check yourself, and ask what is it worth? Now, when the city project, or, you know, for argument's sake, comes across and they sell, ‘we want what you do… we want you to do this”. And then the minute you hit them with lettering or whatever, they're like, ‘Whoa, that's aggressive’, and that's only speaking to this.
I try and sell it as abstract and more urban, more this is really where it's at. It's accepted in museums and galleries worldwide. You guys need to really get on with this movement. Yeah, we can throw a flower in there, or this or that to appease them, but now we're doing what they want, and now I'm not doing what I want anymore. So now we better come with a bigger budget, right? Because now you're giving me a job. And for me to go out paint and do my name, or do what we're going to call ‘graffiti’ under that title, I don't consider that a job. I consider that me. It's like a passion project for me. It's what I really are meant to be doing. But when you all of a sudden want clowns and all this other easy, digestible art for the masses to have. Well, then you can go to any art school, or have anyone do that. What I'm offering is something that you can't just get anywhere.
And I could show you examples, and I try and sell it. Sometimes it works. Sometimes 50% catch on, and the other 50% don't, but that's been the ongoing battle for decades with graffiti. It goes hot and cold. Some places can show it and it's well received. Other places can show it and they're firing the motherfucker that put that in there. How dare you bring that? And even they go through it with the paint companies, you know, like these guys are supplying the vandals! They don't want that in their store. They don't want to see these things happen. I've witnessed quite a few occasions where the outlaw end of it won because they cited all kinds of examples. Why this incites other people to emulate you, and then now they're left with this on their hands. And you know, I try and tell them, ‘Well, you guys need to set up an area where they can get out that aggression’. And you know, better educated can happen. But at the same time, it's natural, because I wrote on everyone's shit when I first started… and on occasion, I still do. That's, that's just part of the game.
Yeah, I wouldn't write on a church, or I wouldn't write on somebody's home, or there's like, rules that that I grew up. Understanding now, it's kind of like all bets are off, and it's all over the place. I've been around the world. I've seen places where you wouldn't even think they had graffiti, and it is just covered, COVERED! Like you think South Bronx has some graffiti? That's just basic, you go to some other places around the world and you're like, ‘holy shit!’. This is like everything, all at once. There's no control over this, you know. And if you contain it in a certain part of the city or a certain area? You know, it's just how it is. It's an outlaw kind of sport, if you will.
PNWMM
That's dope, man. I love just hearing about how different art forms kind of fall into each other. It's something that, and I'm always wondering about; is it even worth me learning this skill? Can I apply it to this? I think about that with graff all the time. I'm like, am I going to be able to incorporate this in whatever fine art form I'm going to end up doing if I want to make a career out of it? So it's super sick to hear about tattooing being a big influence just on your style and all those concepts. I did want to ask, you said you kept those concepts separate from your traditional graffiti style. Were you keeping the identity separate? Were you like this is the graffiti, and then I got my tattoo. Were you tattooing under your name and incorporating it into your identity?
CES
I mean, if no, I definitely kept it separate. But there were fanatics, let's say, and people who would seek me out and say, ‘hey, I want you to do, you know graffiti’. And people would fly from foreign countries, in different places and want their name. I've even done my name on people, believe it or not. So there were levels of where these things met, right? Okay, now I'm tattooing, and now I'm creating graffiti. They wanted a spray can. They wanted this. They wanted that. So I was up for those challenges, and I had the skill and know how to do it. So, yeah, that was part of it, but I wasn't marketing myself as that. I was kind of to be 100% honest, I was still very much in love with graffiti and tattooing was like me cheating on graffiti in the sense that I really only wanted to paint, and tattooing was a means to an end for me, because it was a lot of work, and you had to deal with people and cater to people, where graffiti I could just be free and do what I like to do, and I didn't have to answer to anybody.
So the job, end of it, was really waning on me in the sense of, like, fuck dude, this is really work. When I get up and I go to my studio and I paint and I put on music, I just get lost, you know, and it's such a great place to be spiritually and just therapeutically and all these things. I never really got that from tattooing. 100% I did enjoy it. I'm not saying I'm not downing any part of it, because once I started and we were doing it, I became, you know, fixated on doing the best that I could do. And I was like, man, once I get started, I love it, but hearing all your bullshit and dealing with people just to get to that point, and then if you're crying and bleeding, throwing up and all the other shit that came with it, made it more difficult. I didn't have to do that because on any given day, I was already painting that morning, I was gonna go paint that night, and I would have to kind of shut that part off. Imagine going from painting with a fat cat and filling in some giant letters that you were working on or whatever, and then going in to tattoo, and you're coloring in something with, like a 13 mag needle, and you're like, ‘oh my god, this is fucking taking forever’, right? Because you trying to color in one inch, and you just colored in fucking 20 feet an hour ago with this fat cap. So it was like, it would really fucking put your mind in like, ‘Oh my God’. But it was two separate worlds.
So again, graffiti was my first love. And that's the gist of what I'm saying. So when I tattoo, it was work for me. It was work, even though, when I was doing it, I loved it. But to get to that point, to draw that, say a panther for you and get it right and place it and shave you, and go through all these different things was like, you know, again, it was work.
“I was still very much in love with graffiti and tattooing was like me cheating on graffiti in the sense that I really only wanted to paint, and tattooing was a means to an end”
PNWMM
Yeah, that makes sense. Was there any specific day or tattoo near the end when you decided to switch out of it, where you're just like ‘this is it, I can't do this anymore’. Or was there something else that came by as an opportunity where you're like, ‘Oh, now I get to do this graffiti thing full time, and I'm done with tattooing’.
CES
Um, it's just I again, I think I just manifested it. I was like, you know, slowly, painting a little bit more and tattooing a little bit less, and opportunities started to come. And the tides were turning. It was becoming. Years ago, you couldn't find a motherfucker out here. There was no social media, right? So there was no outlet. You didn't know that I was painting. You didn't know that I was tattooing. You had to know somebody or somewhere or have a connection. And that was that. Now everybody has a road map to what you're doing on any given day, if you put it out there. So in that sense, I became more accessible to acquire art from through social media, through being with this gallery or networking and so on and so forth. So that was also a big part of growing with it that helped create what was happening. People didn't realize it allowed this to cultivate and grow based around the information of the day being more accessible to more people.
PNWMM
So social media, there's a great example where we're talking about; areas of just the positives that come with the negative, right? Because it's just like being discoverable, it’s such a big opportunity for so many artists today like yourself. So I just think that's a great point that you made about accessibility and just being able to discover different artists too. You know there's so many.
CES
Well, I won't put it all on social media. I'm saying just the information. It could be a website. It could be like you and I doing this interview. Right now, the information has increased then. Now you had this kind of catalog that you can build, you know, on anything that you like. If you like fucking cars and you like a particular you know, you like Ferraris, now you can read. You can go here, you realize you can go test drive this. And now there's all kinds of information out there for you, whereas probably X amount of years ago, that none of this was accessible to your average cat. They would have to really, like go and find out and ask questions and write letters and and wait on replies. Now it's just like, ‘yo, let's just Google it’. Yeah. See what this is. Let's YouTube it. You know, when I have any kind of problem, like, oh shit, how do I, you know, have this fuse glue, yeah, and I'm just like, ‘Yo, just YouTube that’. And there's fucking 80 people who's got the same situation as you, and they'll be like, ‘This is what you do, get one of these. Do this. Hold this. Fixed’.
So that's kind of the same thing, right? Like even having a GPS in my car, dude, I remember fucking having to buy a map, or my father had to pull in a gas station and say, ‘oh, where's the fucking beach?’. Like it was impossible to get somewhere back there. Now, this shit, you just pull it up. It's 800 apps that'll fucking take you there from satellites, and you're just fucking carefree. Everything's so easy and accessible. Now that's, that's the world we live in. So if in being an artist is where you want to be, you know, and there's increasing amount of artists you know, again, to my recollection and starting, there weren't as many, and there definitely weren't as many people who were good or great or were doing things at a high level. Now like that, that pool has increased to an ocean where you're like, ‘wow, there are so many talented people that were before’. You didn't have any idea, you thought it was you and like three other people. Now, it's like, every day you're finding out about somebody else that's fucking out of this world and pushing boundaries and doing things, and you can see yourself in it, right? That's the trip. Like you're like, wow, they're doing what I like, and now I'm a fan of what they are doing. So that's how it goes and grows. Yeah.
PNWMM
I mean, definitely. It's definitely the younger generations and current and recent generations. I've had a leg up, I feel like, because when I was a teenager and starting to get really serious into graffiti and stuff, I would go to my friend's basement, and he just had the endless supply of graph magazines and DVDs. I mean, it was like a library. Instagram and stuff wasn't out yet, but there were forums and stuff like that. But I remember, you know, looking at Graph mags and. Watching videos of you painting and other writers in New York from whether it's the 90s or 80s, and I'm just like, being able to figure out what it's supposed to look like, because with no prior context to the art form, you don't really know what it's supposed to look like. Like, yeah, it's graffiti, it's tagging, but like, what is it even like? How do you even stylize it? What even looks good? What style even looks good? But you know, we got to look at writers like you and other writers that came before us and be like, oh shit, that's what a C's supposed to look like! You know what I mean? Or just like I saw, that's how the 3d is supposed to look like. You know, it's not supposed to go this way. It's supposed to look, you know, at least within the bounds of this context.
CES
I looked at writers that came before me, and I was doing the same thing. I was like, you know, if my shit looked a little bit like Scene. I felt like, ‘oh, shit!’ I'm doing it right! You know, like I didn't know. I thought that was the the way like, to learn to emulate these things. And the more you did, the more easier it becomes. And then you start to break through. You start to break through, and it becomes your own. You, you then bend things in your own way. Now you build that kind of confidence, and the visions and things and things just start breaking down. Now you don't need any form of reference or anything. It's just natural. You've become it. You've arrived, and now that's how it is. It's kind of like someone teaching you how to ride a bike, and, you know, they gotta put wheels on with training wheels. Or, you know, they put you in a situation, and then one day they just you let go, and you're like, ‘holy shit, I'm doing this’. It's kind of that situation. If you stick, stick to it, and you next thing, you know, you’re fucking on the Tour de France. You know, doing all kinds of wild shit, all kinds of mural events and stuff like that, right? And that's kind of like, metaphorically, what graffiti is, if you really stick it out.
There are a few die-hards that live and die with being illegal and being undercover, and nobody knows this and that, and I appreciate that. And I do, you know, part of me wishes I could go back, and the other part of me is like, ‘Yo, I am not wasting a minute out here’. You know, I'm not concerned about that part of it. I'm more concerned at giving the best that I have is where I put more of my focus. But I recognize, you know, graffiti as some form of a stepping stone, if you will, to become and level up with what it is you do. Because let's, let's put it like this, you start writing. You write with your neighborhood friends. Then all of a sudden you meet other people. You travel. You start getting up in other places. You're recognized. And then all of a sudden someone pulls up to you in a fucking limo and says, Hey, kid, you want to go to Europe. I'll pay your way. You can go paint trains and be in this show, and I'll give you a bag of money and a whole bunch of paint. Now you have the opportunity. You're at a crossroad. You could say, Hey, I just want to stay in my city, in this tunnel, and only paint with my friends, and that's all I started for. Thank you, but no, thank you. You may miss that moment because it may never come around again.
Well, like, you know, like in the Grateful Dead, the bus came by and I got on, and I really haven't looked back. I just said, you know, I want to, I want to see where this takes me, and so far, it's been a really fascinating ride and journey that hasn't ended. It's only growing and getting bigger and stronger, and I feel very much a part of it, and the decisions that I've made were that of growth, of saying, ‘Yeah, you know, I could have just stayed underground’, and no one knows what I look like. And did this and did that, and said no to all these opportunities as they came, because I could watch and see, especially today, cats that I know are good, and they're out there killing the streets and doing this, and the next thing you know, someone's going to go knock on there and hit them with a little message, or whatever, you know, metaphorically. And opportunities are now created, and now they could either say, ‘No, I only like to scale the side of buildings and risk my life for free and for the love’, or they're going to have a show. They're going to sell paintings, or they're going to write a book, or they're going to make a movie, or they're going to fucking make a t shirt, or this or that, whatever it is they're going to they're going to see the opportunity in leveling up at some point, and they have that decision to either say, hey, it's not why I started, It's not what I'm into. That's some corny shit. I'm gonna keep doing it this way, and I've again, you're not wrong if you do, and you're not wrong if you don't. But, you know, seize the day. It’s my way. I love that man.
PNWMM
It's been super great just to touch on that before we end this. Do you have any parting words or advice for, say, a younger writer or even a younger artist that's, you know, not really super in a graph, or a die hard kind of graffiti kid who's looking to, you know, maybe following those footsteps into some type of way, like, hey, I want to be creative. You know, I do want to turn this into some type of career, just any, any kind of words of wisdom you might have for the younger kids.
CES
I definitely do. And this is something that I've learned to to live by and not and sometimes even I forget it is to have fun. You know, I think that the greatest people always say, Oh, who's the I forget it is to have fun. You know, I think that the greatest people always say, Oh, who's the best? And, you know, that's, you know, that's strictly on the person to answer that question. But to me, I think the best person is the one who's having the most fun. And when I say that, what I mean is, you know, you can get a cat, he's a mad scientist, super skilled, but he's pulling his fucking hair out in his fucking house, doing these drawings and coming up with new outlines, and he's like, fucking too serious, and is just miserable. Miserable to be around. Miserable to witness and that's what comes out. You know, the guy that's having the most fun and enjoying what he's doing is really the person who's winning at life. And you can't neglect life and choose say, ‘Well, you know, art comes before my health and before my happiness and before my relations’, you have to be well rounded and well received in that sense.
So don't forget to have fun.
It’s my message to people, because it goes by so fast and before you know it, I'm old, right? I felt I'm considered young in New York historically, and I'm old, and I can say I actually still have fun. I've had fun. I've taken things really serious, and I've dealt with some serious bullshit with people that try and strip you of this fucking, this, you know, this love that you have. I don't let it get me, and never stopped me. You know, it's hard enough dealing with the law. Never mind other miserable people trying to drag you and pull you just because that's something they live with. It's not me. I'm out here and, you know, I'm having a fucking great time doing this shit. And the minute I'm not, I don't think I'll do it anymore. Then it's then it's a whole different thing. So my advice is, yeah, recognize your value, have fun most of all, and enjoy the ride.
“The guy that’s having the most fun and enjoying what he’s doing is really the person who’s winning at life.”
PNWMM
Damn man, couldn't, couldn't have said it better. That's a great note to wrap it up on. Man, I super appreciate your time. I gotta say, it's just, it's just been a trip to talk to you after watching you and looking at your shit like when I was literally a teenager. So definitely appreciate you taking the time out of your day to do this interview for us.
CES
Thank you. Man, looking forward to meeting you and some of the other artists out there when I come out there and that I know. When is it?
PNWMM
June. We'll show you a good time for sure. Looking forward to it man, thank you.
CES
Alright. You too. Man, be safe. Peace.
